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Homepage / Pivot Podcast /#148: Cruciform Leadership: Why Church Leaders Need the Cross More Than Success

#148: Cruciform Leadership: Why Church Leaders Need the Cross More Than Success

Drawing from her journey from corporate consultant to ministry executive, Nicole Massie Martin reveals how most leadership models ignore the very heart of Christian faith and why pastors are burning out trying to lead like the world instead of following Jesus.

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Are you exhausted from trying to be the perfect church leader who has all the answers? Nicole Massie Martin, COO of Christianity Today and author of “Nailing It: Why Successful Leadership Demands Suffering and Surrender,” introduces us to cruciform leadership—a revolutionary approach that places the cross at the center of how we lead. Drawing from her journey from corporate consultant to ministry executive, Nicole reveals how most leadership models ignore the very heart of Christian faith and why pastors are burning out trying to lead like the world instead of following Jesus.

In this powerful conversation, Nicole shows us what it means to replace perfectionism with perfect union with Christ, how to let God set the pace instead of competing with other churches, and why authentic vulnerability is what congregations are actually hungry for. Through cruciform leadership, church leaders can move from trying to be their congregation’s savior to pointing people toward the real Savior, discovering the abundant life that comes through embracing the way of the cross rather than chasing worldly success.

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Featuring

Nicole Massie Martin
Nicole Massie Martin
Chief Operating Officer, Christianity Today; Founder and Executive Director, Soulfire International Ministries

Rev. Dr. Nicole Massie Martin holds degrees from Vanderbilt University, Princeton Theological Seminary, and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. She is the Chief Operating Officer at Christianity Today and founder and Executive Director of Soulfire International Ministries. She is an accomplished writer and author, serves on various boards and councils, and leads the Grow Ministry at Kingdom Fellowship AME Church in Maryland. Her book “Nailing It” addresses the need for new models of Christian leadership in our current cultural moment.

Hosts

Faith+Lead Headshot of The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile, VP of Innovation, Luther Seminary.
Dwight Zscheile
Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile is professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

He is the author of Embracing the Mixed Ecology (with Blair Pogue, Seabury Books, 2025), Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future (with Michael Binder and Tessa Pinkstaff, Fortress Press 2023), Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the U.S. (with Craig Van Gelder, Eerdmans 2018), The Agile Church: Spirit-Led Innovation in an Uncertain Age (Morehouse Publishing, 2014), People of the Way: Renewing Episcopal Identity (Morehouse Publishing, 2012) and The Missional Church in Perspective: Mapping Trends and Shaping the Conversation (with Craig Van Gelder, Baker Academic 2011), editor of Cultivating Sent Communities: Missional Spiritual Formation (Eerdmans, 2012), and co-editor (with Ed Olsworth-Peter) of The Starter’s Way: Leading New Contextual Christian Communities (Church Publishing, 2025).

A graduate of Stanford University (BA), Yale University (MDiv) and Luther Seminary (PhD, Congregational Mission and Leadership), Dwight previously served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.

Faith+Lead Headshot of Dr. Alicia Granholm, Senior Director of Faith+Lead.
Alicia Granholm
Senior Director, Faith+Lead, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

Dr. Alicia Granholm is senior director of Faith+Lead at Luther Seminary and a leadership and church consultant based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She helps pastors and leaders engage culture to make a lasting impact. For nearly two decades, she has trained, equipped, and empowered followers of Jesus to engage their local communities by contextualizing the Gospel and its application. Alicia compassionately crosses cultural boundaries having lived, studied, traveled, and served in 25 countries on six continents. Alicia has a Doctor of Strategic Leadership, Global Consulting (Regent University), M.Div. (Bethel Seminary), and M.A. in Teaching (University of St. Thomas).

About Pivot Podcast

Join us on Pivot Podcast, where we journey beyond church-as-usual to discover how God is reshaping ministry for today’s world.

Each week, we dive into conversations with innovative leaders and practitioners who are navigating four game-changing pivots: shifting from quick fixes to deep listening, from membership to discipleship, from rigid models to creative ministry ecosystems, and from clergy-centered leadership to unleashing everyone’s gifts.

Whether you’re a member of the clergy seeking fresh inspiration or a volunteer stepping into new leadership territory, Pivot Podcast equips you with the insights and practical wisdom to follow Jesus into a faithful future.

Through their work with diverse cohorts of preachers, they’ve discovered that the most compelling sermons aren’t necessarily the most polished – they’re the ones where preachers have learned to listen deeply to both God and their congregations. Learn practical tools for gathering meaningful feedback, understand why vulnerability matters more than ever in preaching, and discover how shifting from evaluation to understanding can deepen your sermon’s impact. Plus, hear why reimagining God’s agency in preaching might be the key to unlocking more powerful proclamation.

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Featuring

Nicole Massie Martin
Nicole Massie Martin
Chief Operating Officer, Christianity Today; Founder and Executive Director, Soulfire International Ministries

Rev. Dr. Nicole Massie Martin holds degrees from Vanderbilt University, Princeton Theological Seminary, and Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary. She is the Chief Operating Officer at Christianity Today and founder and Executive Director of Soulfire International Ministries. She is an accomplished writer and author, serves on various boards and councils, and leads the Grow Ministry at Kingdom Fellowship AME Church in Maryland. Her book “Nailing It” addresses the need for new models of Christian leadership in our current cultural moment.

Hosts

Faith+Lead Headshot of The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile, VP of Innovation, Luther Seminary.
Dwight Zscheile
Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile is professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

He is the author of Embracing the Mixed Ecology (with Blair Pogue, Seabury Books, 2025), Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future (with Michael Binder and Tessa Pinkstaff, Fortress Press 2023), Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the U.S. (with Craig Van Gelder, Eerdmans 2018), The Agile Church: Spirit-Led Innovation in an Uncertain Age (Morehouse Publishing, 2014), People of the Way: Renewing Episcopal Identity (Morehouse Publishing, 2012) and The Missional Church in Perspective: Mapping Trends and Shaping the Conversation (with Craig Van Gelder, Baker Academic 2011), editor of Cultivating Sent Communities: Missional Spiritual Formation (Eerdmans, 2012), and co-editor (with Ed Olsworth-Peter) of The Starter’s Way: Leading New Contextual Christian Communities (Church Publishing, 2025).

A graduate of Stanford University (BA), Yale University (MDiv) and Luther Seminary (PhD, Congregational Mission and Leadership), Dwight previously served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.

Faith+Lead Headshot of Dr. Alicia Granholm, Senior Director of Faith+Lead.
Alicia Granholm
Senior Director, Faith+Lead, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

Dr. Alicia Granholm is senior director of Faith+Lead at Luther Seminary and a leadership and church consultant based in Minneapolis, Minnesota. She helps pastors and leaders engage culture to make a lasting impact. For nearly two decades, she has trained, equipped, and empowered followers of Jesus to engage their local communities by contextualizing the Gospel and its application. Alicia compassionately crosses cultural boundaries having lived, studied, traveled, and served in 25 countries on six continents. Alicia has a Doctor of Strategic Leadership, Global Consulting (Regent University), M.Div. (Bethel Seminary), and M.A. in Teaching (University of St. Thomas).