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#104: Can the West Be Converted?

Discover how to move beyond quick fixes and embrace a deeper transformation in your church with Dr. Michael Goheen.

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American pastors want things fast, large, and famous… but the kingdom of God comes slowly, in small and mostly unrecognized ways.” In this paradigm-shifting conversation, Dr. Michael W. Goheen challenges our deeply held assumptions about church growth and success. Through the story of a remarkable turnaround in a dying congregation, Goheen demonstrates what happens when a church stops chasing quick fixes and begins to question its cultural captivity to growth metrics.

Join hosts Dwight Zscheile and Terri Elton as they explore with Goheen how Western cultural idolatries shape our approach to church leadership, what we can learn from Lesslie Newbigin’s missionary insights, and how ordinary church practices can be reoriented toward authentic renewal. Whether you’re leading a growing congregation or struggling with decline, this episode will help you discern the difference between cultural definitions of success and genuine participation in God’s mission.

Resources Mentioned

  • "Foolishness to the Greeks" by Lesslie Newbigin
  • "The Gospel in a Pluralist Society" by Lesslie Newbigin
  • "The Church and Its Vocation" by Michael Goheen
  • "Becoming a Missionary Church" by Michael Goheen
  • "The Imperfect Pastor" by Zack Eswine
  • Dr. Goheen's website with free resources - https://missionworldview.com/

Featuring

Michael W. Goheen
Guest in Pivot Podcast

Dr. Michael Goheen is Professor of Missional Theology and Director of Theological Education at the Missional Training Center in Phoenix. He has authored numerous books on missiology and ecclesiology, including “The Church and Its Vocation: Lesslie Newbigin’s Missional Ecclesiology.” With extensive experience as a church planter, pastor, and educator, Dr. Goheen brings a wealth of knowledge on the intersection of the gospel, culture, and the church’s mission.

Hosts

Faith+Lead Headshot of The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile, VP of Innovation, Luther Seminary.
Dwight Zscheile
Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile is professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

He is the author of Embracing the Mixed Ecology (with Blair Pogue, Seabury Books, 2025), Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future (with Michael Binder and Tessa Pinkstaff, Fortress Press 2023), Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the U.S. (with Craig Van Gelder, Eerdmans 2018), The Agile Church: Spirit-Led Innovation in an Uncertain Age (Morehouse Publishing, 2014), People of the Way: Renewing Episcopal Identity (Morehouse Publishing, 2012) and The Missional Church in Perspective: Mapping Trends and Shaping the Conversation (with Craig Van Gelder, Baker Academic 2011), editor of Cultivating Sent Communities: Missional Spiritual Formation (Eerdmans, 2012), and co-editor (with Ed Olsworth-Peter) of The Starter’s Way: Leading New Contextual Christian Communities (Church Publishing, 2025).

A graduate of Stanford University (BA), Yale University (MDiv) and Luther Seminary (PhD, Congregational Mission and Leadership), Dwight previously served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.

Terri Elton
Dean of Academic Affairs and Professor of Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Terri Martinson Elton began teaching at Luther Seminary as an adjunct instructor in 2004 before becoming the director of the Center for Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2008. In addition to her continued work with the Center, Elton accepted the position of associate professor of Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2010 and associate professor of Leadership in 2014.

Prior to her call to Luther Seminary, Elton served as an associate to the bishop in the Saint Paul Area Synod where her responsibilities included working with congregations, leadership development, First Call theological education and youth and family ministry.

Elton holds a B.A. degree in communications from Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn. (1986). She earned both her M.A. (1998) and Ph.D. (2007) degrees in Congregational Mission and Leadership from Luther Seminary.

About Pivot Podcast

Join us on Pivot Podcast, where we journey beyond church-as-usual to discover how God is reshaping ministry for today’s world.

Each week, we dive into conversations with innovative leaders and practitioners who are navigating four game-changing pivots: shifting from quick fixes to deep listening, from membership to discipleship, from rigid models to creative ministry ecosystems, and from clergy-centered leadership to unleashing everyone’s gifts.

Whether you’re a member of the clergy seeking fresh inspiration or a volunteer stepping into new leadership territory, Pivot Podcast equips you with the insights and practical wisdom to follow Jesus into a faithful future.

Through their work with diverse cohorts of preachers, they’ve discovered that the most compelling sermons aren’t necessarily the most polished – they’re the ones where preachers have learned to listen deeply to both God and their congregations. Learn practical tools for gathering meaningful feedback, understand why vulnerability matters more than ever in preaching, and discover how shifting from evaluation to understanding can deepen your sermon’s impact. Plus, hear why reimagining God’s agency in preaching might be the key to unlocking more powerful proclamation.

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Featuring

Michael W. Goheen
Guest in Pivot Podcast

Dr. Michael Goheen is Professor of Missional Theology and Director of Theological Education at the Missional Training Center in Phoenix. He has authored numerous books on missiology and ecclesiology, including “The Church and Its Vocation: Lesslie Newbigin’s Missional Ecclesiology.” With extensive experience as a church planter, pastor, and educator, Dr. Goheen brings a wealth of knowledge on the intersection of the gospel, culture, and the church’s mission.

Hosts

Faith+Lead Headshot of The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile, VP of Innovation, Luther Seminary.
Dwight Zscheile
Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile is professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

He is the author of Embracing the Mixed Ecology (with Blair Pogue, Seabury Books, 2025), Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future (with Michael Binder and Tessa Pinkstaff, Fortress Press 2023), Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the U.S. (with Craig Van Gelder, Eerdmans 2018), The Agile Church: Spirit-Led Innovation in an Uncertain Age (Morehouse Publishing, 2014), People of the Way: Renewing Episcopal Identity (Morehouse Publishing, 2012) and The Missional Church in Perspective: Mapping Trends and Shaping the Conversation (with Craig Van Gelder, Baker Academic 2011), editor of Cultivating Sent Communities: Missional Spiritual Formation (Eerdmans, 2012), and co-editor (with Ed Olsworth-Peter) of The Starter’s Way: Leading New Contextual Christian Communities (Church Publishing, 2025).

A graduate of Stanford University (BA), Yale University (MDiv) and Luther Seminary (PhD, Congregational Mission and Leadership), Dwight previously served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.

Terri Elton
Dean of Academic Affairs and Professor of Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Terri Martinson Elton began teaching at Luther Seminary as an adjunct instructor in 2004 before becoming the director of the Center for Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2008. In addition to her continued work with the Center, Elton accepted the position of associate professor of Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2010 and associate professor of Leadership in 2014.

Prior to her call to Luther Seminary, Elton served as an associate to the bishop in the Saint Paul Area Synod where her responsibilities included working with congregations, leadership development, First Call theological education and youth and family ministry.

Elton holds a B.A. degree in communications from Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn. (1986). She earned both her M.A. (1998) and Ph.D. (2007) degrees in Congregational Mission and Leadership from Luther Seminary.