Homepage / Pivot Podcast /#93: Beyond Church Growth Strategies: Is Innovation a Helpful Category for the Church? (2 of 2)

#93: Beyond Church Growth Strategies: Is Innovation a Helpful Category for the Church? (2 of 2)

Dr. Andy Root, Rev. Dr. Michael Binder, and Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile suggest true ministry innovation may come from slowing down, not speeding up.

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Spiritual Practices for Faithful Innovation

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In this compelling follow-up episode, the Pivot Podcast dives deeper into the heart of church leadership and innovation. Dr. Andy Root, Dr. Michael Binder, and Dr. Dwight Zscheile challenge prevailing notions about church growth and effectiveness, proposing a radical shift in approach. Could the key to revitalizing ministry be found in doing less, waiting on God, and embracing uncertainty?

Explore why slowing down might be the most innovative step a church can take, how to redefine growth beyond numbers, and what it means to cultivate the courage to ask difficult questions about God’s activity. This conversation offers hope and practical wisdom for leaders feeling burnt out or discouraged, inviting them to rediscover the heart of authentic, Christ-centered ministry in a rapidly changing world.

Show Notes

  • "The Congregation in a Secular Age," by Andrew Root

https://www.andrewroot.org/the-congregation-in-a-secular-age/

  • "The Church after Innovation," by Andrew Root

https://www.andrewroot.org/the-church-after-innovation/

  • "Leading Faithful Innovation" by Michael Binder, Dwight Zscheile, and Tessa Pinkstaff

https://www.fortresspress.com/store/product/9781506488769/Leading-Faithful-Innovation

  • "Four Key Pivots the Church Must Make"

https://faithlead.org/about/framework/four-key-pivots/

  • "The Rise and Fall of American Growth," by Robert J. Gordon

https://press.princeton.edu/books/paperback/9780691175805/the-rise-and-fall-of-american-growth?srsltid=AfmBOop2sj6p08skcsIp5yK-7-nmcXAWbgZgFcplJM43xqVg0rUOKY7T

  • Download: Free sample chapter of Leading Faithful Innovation

https://faithlead.org/topics/faithful-innovation/

Featuring

Andrew Root
Professor and Carrie Olson Baalson Chair of Youth and Family Ministry, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, MInnesota

After receiving his Ph.D. at Princeton Theological Seminary, Andrew Root joined Luther Seminary in 2005. He is considered one of the leading scholars of youth ministry and practical theology in the world. Root has published 16 books, many of which have been found on lists for Book of the Year. His latest project is a three-volume series with Baker Academic. Root is known as a leading thinker on Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and is a sought-after speaker at conferences, colleges, and churches. He has lectured and presented all over the world, including South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, and Europe.

Faith+Lead Headshot of The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile, VP of Innovation, Luther Seminary.
Dwight Zscheile
Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile is professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

He is the author of Embracing the Mixed Ecology (with Blair Pogue, Seabury Books, 2025), Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future (with Michael Binder and Tessa Pinkstaff, Fortress Press 2023), Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the U.S. (with Craig Van Gelder, Eerdmans 2018), The Agile Church: Spirit-Led Innovation in an Uncertain Age (Morehouse Publishing, 2014), People of the Way: Renewing Episcopal Identity (Morehouse Publishing, 2012) and The Missional Church in Perspective: Mapping Trends and Shaping the Conversation (with Craig Van Gelder, Baker Academic 2011), editor of Cultivating Sent Communities: Missional Spiritual Formation (Eerdmans, 2012), and co-editor (with Ed Olsworth-Peter) of The Starter’s Way: Leading New Contextual Christian Communities (Church Publishing, 2025).

A graduate of Stanford University (BA), Yale University (MDiv) and Luther Seminary (PhD, Congregational Mission and Leadership), Dwight previously served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.

Terri Elton
Dean of Academic Affairs and Professor of Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Terri Martinson Elton began teaching at Luther Seminary as an adjunct instructor in 2004 before becoming the director of the Center for Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2008. In addition to her continued work with the Center, Elton accepted the position of associate professor of Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2010 and associate professor of Leadership in 2014.

Prior to her call to Luther Seminary, Elton served as an associate to the bishop in the Saint Paul Area Synod where her responsibilities included working with congregations, leadership development, First Call theological education and youth and family ministry.

Elton holds a B.A. degree in communications from Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn. (1986). She earned both her M.A. (1998) and Ph.D. (2007) degrees in Congregational Mission and Leadership from Luther Seminary.

Michael Binder
Assistant Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

Dr. Michael Binder is an assistant professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. His teaching focuses on starting new congregations, leading change, and practicing Christian witness and evangelism amidst secular cultures. 

Binder was a founding pastor of Mill City Church in northeast Minneapolis. He was the director of preaching for Bethel University from 2006-2013 and worked as a young adult pastor for Woodridge Church before that.

He has worked as a consultant with hundreds of congregations and denominations in the U.S. and Canada. Binder is a graduate of Carleton College, Bethel University (M.Div., 2008), and Luther Seminary (Ph.D., Congregational Mission and Leadership, 2017).

Hosts

Faith+Lead Headshot of The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile, VP of Innovation, Luther Seminary.
Dwight Zscheile
Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile is professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

He is the author of Embracing the Mixed Ecology (with Blair Pogue, Seabury Books, 2025), Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future (with Michael Binder and Tessa Pinkstaff, Fortress Press 2023), Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the U.S. (with Craig Van Gelder, Eerdmans 2018), The Agile Church: Spirit-Led Innovation in an Uncertain Age (Morehouse Publishing, 2014), People of the Way: Renewing Episcopal Identity (Morehouse Publishing, 2012) and The Missional Church in Perspective: Mapping Trends and Shaping the Conversation (with Craig Van Gelder, Baker Academic 2011), editor of Cultivating Sent Communities: Missional Spiritual Formation (Eerdmans, 2012), and co-editor (with Ed Olsworth-Peter) of The Starter’s Way: Leading New Contextual Christian Communities (Church Publishing, 2025).

A graduate of Stanford University (BA), Yale University (MDiv) and Luther Seminary (PhD, Congregational Mission and Leadership), Dwight previously served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.

Terri Elton
Dean of Academic Affairs and Professor of Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Terri Martinson Elton began teaching at Luther Seminary as an adjunct instructor in 2004 before becoming the director of the Center for Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2008. In addition to her continued work with the Center, Elton accepted the position of associate professor of Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2010 and associate professor of Leadership in 2014.

Prior to her call to Luther Seminary, Elton served as an associate to the bishop in the Saint Paul Area Synod where her responsibilities included working with congregations, leadership development, First Call theological education and youth and family ministry.

Elton holds a B.A. degree in communications from Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn. (1986). She earned both her M.A. (1998) and Ph.D. (2007) degrees in Congregational Mission and Leadership from Luther Seminary.

About Pivot Podcast

Join us on Pivot Podcast, where we journey beyond church-as-usual to discover how God is reshaping ministry for today’s world.

Each week, we dive into conversations with innovative leaders and practitioners who are navigating four game-changing pivots: shifting from quick fixes to deep listening, from membership to discipleship, from rigid models to creative ministry ecosystems, and from clergy-centered leadership to unleashing everyone’s gifts.

Whether you’re a member of the clergy seeking fresh inspiration or a volunteer stepping into new leadership territory, Pivot Podcast equips you with the insights and practical wisdom to follow Jesus into a faithful future.

Through their work with diverse cohorts of preachers, they’ve discovered that the most compelling sermons aren’t necessarily the most polished – they’re the ones where preachers have learned to listen deeply to both God and their congregations. Learn practical tools for gathering meaningful feedback, understand why vulnerability matters more than ever in preaching, and discover how shifting from evaluation to understanding can deepen your sermon’s impact. Plus, hear why reimagining God’s agency in preaching might be the key to unlocking more powerful proclamation.

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Featuring

Andrew Root
Professor and Carrie Olson Baalson Chair of Youth and Family Ministry, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, MInnesota

After receiving his Ph.D. at Princeton Theological Seminary, Andrew Root joined Luther Seminary in 2005. He is considered one of the leading scholars of youth ministry and practical theology in the world. Root has published 16 books, many of which have been found on lists for Book of the Year. His latest project is a three-volume series with Baker Academic. Root is known as a leading thinker on Dietrich Bonhoeffer, and is a sought-after speaker at conferences, colleges, and churches. He has lectured and presented all over the world, including South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, and Europe.

Faith+Lead Headshot of The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile, VP of Innovation, Luther Seminary.
Dwight Zscheile
Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile is professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

He is the author of Embracing the Mixed Ecology (with Blair Pogue, Seabury Books, 2025), Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future (with Michael Binder and Tessa Pinkstaff, Fortress Press 2023), Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the U.S. (with Craig Van Gelder, Eerdmans 2018), The Agile Church: Spirit-Led Innovation in an Uncertain Age (Morehouse Publishing, 2014), People of the Way: Renewing Episcopal Identity (Morehouse Publishing, 2012) and The Missional Church in Perspective: Mapping Trends and Shaping the Conversation (with Craig Van Gelder, Baker Academic 2011), editor of Cultivating Sent Communities: Missional Spiritual Formation (Eerdmans, 2012), and co-editor (with Ed Olsworth-Peter) of The Starter’s Way: Leading New Contextual Christian Communities (Church Publishing, 2025).

A graduate of Stanford University (BA), Yale University (MDiv) and Luther Seminary (PhD, Congregational Mission and Leadership), Dwight previously served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.

Terri Elton
Dean of Academic Affairs and Professor of Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Terri Martinson Elton began teaching at Luther Seminary as an adjunct instructor in 2004 before becoming the director of the Center for Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2008. In addition to her continued work with the Center, Elton accepted the position of associate professor of Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2010 and associate professor of Leadership in 2014.

Prior to her call to Luther Seminary, Elton served as an associate to the bishop in the Saint Paul Area Synod where her responsibilities included working with congregations, leadership development, First Call theological education and youth and family ministry.

Elton holds a B.A. degree in communications from Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn. (1986). She earned both her M.A. (1998) and Ph.D. (2007) degrees in Congregational Mission and Leadership from Luther Seminary.

Michael Binder
Assistant Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

Dr. Michael Binder is an assistant professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota. His teaching focuses on starting new congregations, leading change, and practicing Christian witness and evangelism amidst secular cultures. 

Binder was a founding pastor of Mill City Church in northeast Minneapolis. He was the director of preaching for Bethel University from 2006-2013 and worked as a young adult pastor for Woodridge Church before that.

He has worked as a consultant with hundreds of congregations and denominations in the U.S. and Canada. Binder is a graduate of Carleton College, Bethel University (M.Div., 2008), and Luther Seminary (Ph.D., Congregational Mission and Leadership, 2017).

Hosts

Faith+Lead Headshot of The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile, VP of Innovation, Luther Seminary.
Dwight Zscheile
Professor of Congregational Mission and Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Dwight Zscheile is professor of congregational mission and leadership at Luther Seminary in St. Paul, Minnesota.

He is the author of Embracing the Mixed Ecology (with Blair Pogue, Seabury Books, 2025), Leading Faithful Innovation: Following God into a Hopeful Future (with Michael Binder and Tessa Pinkstaff, Fortress Press 2023), Participating in God’s Mission: A Theological Missiology for the U.S. (with Craig Van Gelder, Eerdmans 2018), The Agile Church: Spirit-Led Innovation in an Uncertain Age (Morehouse Publishing, 2014), People of the Way: Renewing Episcopal Identity (Morehouse Publishing, 2012) and The Missional Church in Perspective: Mapping Trends and Shaping the Conversation (with Craig Van Gelder, Baker Academic 2011), editor of Cultivating Sent Communities: Missional Spiritual Formation (Eerdmans, 2012), and co-editor (with Ed Olsworth-Peter) of The Starter’s Way: Leading New Contextual Christian Communities (Church Publishing, 2025).

A graduate of Stanford University (BA), Yale University (MDiv) and Luther Seminary (PhD, Congregational Mission and Leadership), Dwight previously served congregations in Minnesota, Virginia and Connecticut. Dwight’s experience growing up in a secular home in California has shaped his commitment to helping the church cultivate Christian community with neighbors in today’s changing world.

Terri Elton
Dean of Academic Affairs and Professor of Leadership, Luther Seminary, St. Paul, Minnesota

The Rev. Dr. Terri Martinson Elton began teaching at Luther Seminary as an adjunct instructor in 2004 before becoming the director of the Center for Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2008. In addition to her continued work with the Center, Elton accepted the position of associate professor of Children, Youth and Family Ministry in 2010 and associate professor of Leadership in 2014.

Prior to her call to Luther Seminary, Elton served as an associate to the bishop in the Saint Paul Area Synod where her responsibilities included working with congregations, leadership development, First Call theological education and youth and family ministry.

Elton holds a B.A. degree in communications from Concordia College in Moorhead, Minn. (1986). She earned both her M.A. (1998) and Ph.D. (2007) degrees in Congregational Mission and Leadership from Luther Seminary.